How did investigators ask a romance scammer out on a date, how are smart homes continuing to play dumb, and is it time for social media sites to do more about racist football fans?
All this and much more is discussed in the latest edition of the award-winning “Smashing Security” podcast by cybersecurity veterans Graham Cluley and Carole Theriault, joined this week by BBC technology reporter Zoe Kleinman.
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What is brilliant about Columbo is that most murder mystery shows, it's normally about who committed the crime. Not with Columbo. You know that from the very beginning.
It's not even how the crime was committed. You saw it with your own eyes. The first 15 minutes of the program, before Columbo even shows up, you see the murder, how it's been done.
It is all about how will Columbo wrap this guy up in knots. Aye, aye, aye. Can I just put my cigar out somewhere? It's terrific.
It's not even how the crime was committed. You saw it with your own eyes. The first 15 minutes of the program, before Columbo even shows up, you see the murder, how it's been done.
It is all about how will Columbo wrap this guy up in knots. Aye, aye, aye. Can I just put my cigar out somewhere? It's terrific.
It's sweet. I'd say it's sweet.
It is sweet.
I'm not sure I'd say it's— I wouldn't say it's—
What?
I wouldn't say it's the be-all and end-all of television, but I think if you were feeling unwell, right, and you wanted something a bit, you know, eating ice cream, it's kind of eating ice cream.
You just get to watch it. It's very comforting. It's a little blanket.
You just get to watch it. It's very comforting. It's a little blanket.
It's not Murder, She Wrote. Smashing Security, episode 236, Stingrays, Soccer, and Smart Homes, with Carole Theriault and Graham Cluley.
Hello, hello, and welcome to Smashing Security, episode 236. My name's Graham Cluley.
Hello, hello, and welcome to Smashing Security, episode 236. My name's Graham Cluley.
And I'm Carole Theriault.
Hello, Carole.
Hello, Graham. That's unusual that you greet me.
Jeez.
This week we're joined by returning guest, it's BBC technology reporter Zoe Kleinman. Hello, Zoe.
Hello, Graham and Carole.
Hi, welcome back.
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
You've been a busy girl.
Yeah, quite busy. Quite busy growing a human, actually.
Yeah, you're 7 months pregnant. That's how busy you've been.
It's my lockdown surprise. I wish I'd just started baking sourdough instead, to be honest.
Well, at least it's proof that you did have some fun during lockdown.
There comes a point when you've watched everything on Netflix and you think, what are we going to do now?
We ran out of TV. That was the problem.
Let's thank this week's sponsors: 1Password, Offensive Security, and privacy.com. It's their support that helps us give you this show for free.
Now, coming up on today's show, Graham, what do you got?
Now, coming up on today's show, Graham, what do you got?
I'm gonna be asking the question, how do you find someone who simply won't respond to your texts?
Okay, weird. And what about you, Zoe?
I wanna be talking about the football.
Ooh, 'cause we never get sports on this show. This is fantastic. And I'm doing IoT here, IoT there, and IoT flipping everywhere.
All this and much more coming up on this episode of Smashing Security.
All this and much more coming up on this episode of Smashing Security.
Now, chums, chums, do you remember the old days? Way back when?
Well, depends how old, Graham. Not when you were young.
How far back are we going?
Yeah, exactly. I don't think youngsters today quite understand what it was for us before mobile phones existed.
Oh, it was rubbish, wasn't it?
Do you remember? Not only did we have to make small talk with our partners or look out the window on the bus, but we also had no way of contacting people immediately.
Do you know, I used to have to take a 2-hour bus ride to and from school for about 5 years, and I couldn't read on buses because it just gave me a headache.
And when I got my first Walkman, it was the best thing ever.
And when I got my first Walkman, it was the best thing ever.
Do you remember phoning people up and having to ask their mums and dads if you could speak to them?
And then saying, "I'm sorry, they're busy." Yeah.
God. Way back then, you'd arrange to meet someone at a particular time, right? Well, maybe you'd send them a letter or a homing pigeon.
You'd tell them in some fashion, maybe a landline, that you'd be at Covent Garden beside the kiosk selling sausage rolls at precisely noon.
And there you would be at noon, munching your sausage roll in a smoggy London, waiting for your friend to show up. And you had no idea if they were likely to get there or not.
You'd tell them in some fashion, maybe a landline, that you'd be at Covent Garden beside the kiosk selling sausage rolls at precisely noon.
And there you would be at noon, munching your sausage roll in a smoggy London, waiting for your friend to show up. And you had no idea if they were likely to get there or not.
Yeah, but you had no anxiety about that either.
Well, exactly. The world has changed, hasn't it?
Yeah, I didn't care at all.
You would hang out there. You wouldn't know—
You'd read your book, right? You'd sit and read your book or listen to your Walkman.
Right.
Well, way back then, you wouldn't know what had happened to the person you're meant to be meeting up with or whether they were likely to turn up.
They could have been waylaid by a sequence of unfortunate events. 1894, do you remember the Great Horse Manure Crisis of London?
That was a problem because there were so many horses leaving manure everywhere.
They could have been waylaid by a sequence of unfortunate events. 1894, do you remember the Great Horse Manure Crisis of London?
That was a problem because there were so many horses leaving manure everywhere.
Did you get shat on then?
People were catching typhoid fever.
In the old days, you'd easily hang around for a couple of hours wondering if someone was going to turn up, second-guessing whether you told them the right place to meet you, and you might never find out what happened to them until weeks later when you happened to bump into them.
So it was a bit of a problem getting hold of people. So there was that, but also maybe you want to know where your partner is.
Your partner might say they're going down the chess club for a match. But in fact, they're popping down the aisle of the supermarket, steal some time with a woman at the checkout.
In the old days, you'd easily hang around for a couple of hours wondering if someone was going to turn up, second-guessing whether you told them the right place to meet you, and you might never find out what happened to them until weeks later when you happened to bump into them.
So it was a bit of a problem getting hold of people. So there was that, but also maybe you want to know where your partner is.
Your partner might say they're going down the chess club for a match. But in fact, they're popping down the aisle of the supermarket, steal some time with a woman at the checkout.
Yeah, people can't do that anymore, right? You just check it up on your phone, location tracker.
So, it's not always easy to work out where someone is if they're not going to help, if they're not going to play the part, if they're not going to answer the phone.
And this is a problem which the United States Secret Service had recently when they were trying to get hold of a person of interest.
Because I was reading on Forbes that the Secret Service had attempted to have a chat with a chap called Abdul Inusa.
And Abdul Inusa, he was indicted a couple of months ago for allegedly carrying out romance scams.
And this is a problem which the United States Secret Service had recently when they were trying to get hold of a person of interest.
Because I was reading on Forbes that the Secret Service had attempted to have a chat with a chap called Abdul Inusa.
And Abdul Inusa, he was indicted a couple of months ago for allegedly carrying out romance scams.
Nasty.
Now, according to the reports, Abdul had created numerous fake personas to trick people into falling in love with him.
Yeah, a normal romance scammer. Okay.
Yeah. Now, I don't know about you, but when I hear phrases fake personas, I can't help but think of fancy dress shops.
You want them to have a different outfit for each persona? Yes.
I'm imagining someone dressed up as Long John Silver. Or do you remember that suit, that white suit Richard Gere wore in Officer and a Gentleman?
Yeah.
Maybe an Irish leprechaun. A Wookiee in your case, Carole, because there's a broad spectrum of women who would be—
It would be in your spectrum, would be Diana Rigg but a live version.
Oh yeah, well, preferably alive. Yes, and about 36.
Okay, right. Okay, so you're ageist as well. Wow.
Well, no, it's just that Diana Rigg doesn't— I mean, she was still obviously a lovely woman in her 80s, but somehow I'm not sure it would have worked as well.
You know, it works both ways with romance scammers, doesn't it?
Sometimes there's a team of them pretending to be one person, so you think you're speaking to the same person consistently, but you're not.
So what would that— How would that work, Graham? Would they have to share the outfits? Right, pass the hat. It's my turn to be Geoff.
Sometimes there's a team of them pretending to be one person, so you think you're speaking to the same person consistently, but you're not.
So what would that— How would that work, Graham? Would they have to share the outfits? Right, pass the hat. It's my turn to be Geoff.
Maybe they could be a pantomime horse. So sometimes you get the front end, sometimes the back end talking to you. I don't know.
Oh, mind you, you'd have to want to marry a horse, wouldn't you?
Oh, mind you, you'd have to want to marry a horse, wouldn't you?
Are you talking about furtive things here?
No, not anything furtive. Anyway, according to the boys in blue, this chap, on at least one occasion, he disguised himself as a woman called Grace.
Do you mean on Zoom or on a video chat?
Well, over the internet. I mean, it's a much easier trick to pull off over the internet than in person.
I'm just wondering if it's just audio, maybe he just did it for fun and it didn't matter.
With a squeaky voice or something.
Yeah.
I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't have those details.
That's an important question, which anyway, Grace, according to Abdul— He claimed that Grace owned a cocoa plantation in Johannesburg, and she was going around wooing wealthy men online, saying she needed a bit of cash to do some maintenance around the plantation.
That's an important question, which anyway, Grace, according to Abdul— He claimed that Grace owned a cocoa plantation in Johannesburg, and she was going around wooing wealthy men online, saying she needed a bit of cash to do some maintenance around the plantation.
And this was one of Abdul's personas, actually. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Right, right.
And she'd say, "Don't worry, once we're married, the plantation will make us some cash. We'll have cocoa coming out of our ears." You know, we'll be rolling around in it.
That doesn't sound very nice, but okay.
Well, could be worse places. But now, sure enough, some people did fall for this and they wired money to Grace, or rather Abdul, as a result.
So the investigators were trying to trace this scammer, right?
Because people had complained that they'd lost loads of money and they hadn't ended up owning a cocoa plantation with Grace.
So the investigators were trying to trace this scammer, right?
Because people had complained that they'd lost loads of money and they hadn't ended up owning a cocoa plantation with Grace.
But they weren't able to locate Abdul.
So, what the Secret Service did is they found they had a mobile phone number which they believed belonged to him.
Presumably, at some point, that number was exchanged with one of the victims. Maybe for a bit of sexy chitchat, a bit of messaging.
Presumably, at some point, that number was exchanged with one of the victims. Maybe for a bit of sexy chitchat, a bit of messaging.
Okay, right, right, right.
So, you have to ask yourself, what did the lead investigator do?
Put a wig on and act like a girl.
No, no, he didn't. If it'd been me, I might have messaged them saying, "Hey, haven't chatted for a long time." Yeah. "How's the plantation going?" You know.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Well, they didn't do that. What they did was they sent him a rather less romantic text. And they said, "Mr. Ennusa, call me sometime whenever you get the chance.
Thanks, Terry Hendrick from the US Secret Service."
Thanks, Terry Hendrick from the US Secret Service."
Well, and they wonder why he didn't reply.
They haven't really got the hang of this dating thing, have they?
Abdul might have thought he was being scammed himself. It's like, "Oh yeah, as if the US Secret Service are going to text me." That's true.
Have you got millions of dollars to put in my account for me?
They then followed it up with another text message. They said, "We have an arrest warrant for you out of Huntington, West Virginia. Please get in touch at your earliest convenience."
We want to arrange for you to turn yourself in. It's a bit like those scam phone calls.
Friend of the show Mark Stockley has been on Twitter complaining that he's getting about 5 scam phone calls a day claiming to come from HMRC, where a robot says, you know, you're about to be fined or you're going to be jailed for tax evasion.
Friend of the show Mark Stockley has been on Twitter complaining that he's getting about 5 scam phone calls a day claiming to come from HMRC, where a robot says, you know, you're about to be fined or you're going to be jailed for tax evasion.
I think there's a lot of warrants out for my arrest at the moment, actually.
Oh, Zoe!
Hello!
Where have you been hiding?
So, basically, Abdul was being asked out on a date by the Secret Service.
Yeah, but badly, badly.
Very unsexily, not really charming.
It really annoys me when the authorities undermine everything that we tell people. You know, if somebody messages you saying they're from the Secret Service, they're probably not.
If your doctor messages you and wants your date of birth and your bank account, it's not your doctor.
And then the doctors go, 'Oh no, actually we do do that.' And you're thinking, 'Well, why are you doing that?'
If your doctor messages you and wants your date of birth and your bank account, it's not your doctor.
And then the doctors go, 'Oh no, actually we do do that.' And you're thinking, 'Well, why are you doing that?'
Stop doing that. Well, I think in this case it was desperate measures, wasn't it?
They've tried everything else to track him down, and they're thinking, 'Okay, we'll bend the rules on this occasion.' But I hear what you're saying.
They've tried everything else to track him down, and they're thinking, 'Okay, we'll bend the rules on this occasion.' But I hear what you're saying.
Well, they're not asking for dinner and dining here though, right?
No, they want him to show up so they can arrest him.
They're basically saying, 'You're in trouble. We're onto you. Best if you come in pronto.' Yeah.
Yeah, but what would you do if you got a text? I don't think you'd ring them back and go, hi.
So if I was a law-abiding citizen and wanted— I guess I would probably not ring back, but I might contact the authorities that they claim to be from saying I'm this person.
So doing it from that way, you would contact a lawyer and tell them. Of course you'd contact a lawyer.
So doing it from that way, you would contact a lawyer and tell them. Of course you'd contact a lawyer.
Of course. Why don't you get back to these guys? Yeah, yeah, well, that is what happened. So Abdul contacted a couple of lawyers. They actually turned him down.
They said, "No, no, we're not getting involved in this." But they did contact the Secret Service and say, "We've been contacted by this guy who wants us to represent him, but we're not going to do that." So when the investigators heard, they hadn't heard back from Abdul, but they'd heard from these lawyers.
They said, "No, no, we're not getting involved in this." But they did contact the Secret Service and say, "We've been contacted by this guy who wants us to represent him, but we're not going to do that." So when the investigators heard, they hadn't heard back from Abdul, but they'd heard from these lawyers.
I'm sorry, I'm kind of shocked by that. Surely everyone has a right to legal counsel, right?
Yeah, but as a lawyer, you can choose what case you want to take on.
Sure, but then you don't go to the other side going, "By the way, guess what happened?" Right?
That's a bit shitty.
I don't know. Anyway, carry on. Sorry.
Anyway, so the Secret Service thought, we've probably got the right number here because not only has our iPhone said that the message has been read, but these couple of guys got in touch saying that they were contacted by Abdul, right?
Yeah.
Fair.
Yeah.
So how else are they going to find him if he's refusing to reply and refusing to turn up at the coffee shop?
Well, what they did was they went to Verizon, the cell phone operator, and they hit them with a search warrant to provide location data for the phone, right?
Well, what they did was they went to Verizon, the cell phone operator, and they hit them with a search warrant to provide location data for the phone, right?
Yeah.
And you think that's the end of the story. You think, oh, well, that's it then. They found it. But no.
Because the data they received back from the cell phone operator wasn't precise enough.
Because the data they received back from the cell phone operator wasn't precise enough.
Wasn't precise enough.
Wasn't precise enough.
What do you mean? Didn't give them the exact address?
And I assume not. Maybe. I—
There's a lot of 'ass-huming' here.
Yeah, so I— So it probably gave them the rough geographic area, but wasn't enough to actually find this chap.
Bit of a blow for Verizon's reputation, isn't it?
Well, I mean, do cell phone operators know exactly where we are?
Well, they would arguably tell you that they do, don't they?
Well, Google certainly does, you know.
I always assumed they could do it within a few hundred metres, but— Maybe no more than that?
Amazon would know.
Amazon.
Yeah.
Well, the Secret Service began to get worried, because it had been now two weeks since they sent the texts.
And they were worried that this chap would flee the country to escape justice. So they decided to use another method.
And there is something in America called an E911 Phase 2 data request.
And they were worried that this chap would flee the country to escape justice. So they decided to use another method.
And there is something in America called an E911 Phase 2 data request.
Mm-hmm.
Because when you ring up the police or the ambulance or something that, the emergency services on 911, they can gather more accurate location information, maybe, you know, within 30 or 40 feet.
So you're right, they do know where you are, but it's something which they only collect on very specific situations. So something where it's a life-threatening scenario.
So you're right, they do know where you are, but it's something which they only collect on very specific situations. So something where it's a life-threatening scenario.
Oh, I find this such a relief. I'm really pleased about this.
So they can tell the police or whatever. They say, oh yeah, he's down the hill, you know, in that little ditch over there.
It's they turn it on in an emergency or in a specific circumstance.
Yeah.
You're assuming.
Well, I'm sorry for not being an expert on this, but yes, they've got that. They have a means of collecting this data.
So the investigators, they went to a judge and they said, look, we'd to do this. And we'd also to plant what's called a stingray.
And a stingray, if you've heard, I think we may have chatted about these a long time ago with Lisa Vaas when she was on the podcast. My goodness, what a memory I have.
A Stingray is a hardware device which pretends to be a cell phone tower.
So the investigators, they went to a judge and they said, look, we'd to do this. And we'd also to plant what's called a stingray.
And a stingray, if you've heard, I think we may have chatted about these a long time ago with Lisa Vaas when she was on the podcast. My goodness, what a memory I have.
A Stingray is a hardware device which pretends to be a cell phone tower.
Mm-hmm.
And you set it up in a location, and as mobile devices connect to it trying to get a signal, it's looking out for the phone numbers of the people who are connecting to it.
You sort of set it up in a particular place and wait for some to come along. And they're quite controversial, these Stingrays.
Because of the amount of data they can scoop up from innocent parties.
You sort of set it up in a particular place and wait for some to come along. And they're quite controversial, these Stingrays.
Because of the amount of data they can scoop up from innocent parties.
It's kind of scary that I'd be walking down the street and I just get scooped up by one of these and there's nothing I can do.
Right. Now they say that they delete any data which they're not interested in. So they look out for specific numbers and they ignore the rest.
Say all the Stingray operators in the world. Okay.
So, but, but, but of course it may mess up with your actual connection to the internet if you're suddenly connecting to things that you didn't really want to connect to.
Because there just happens to be someone who's planted this thing down the bottom of your street. So there are moves ahead. There's a, I think it's, is his name Ron Wyden?
There's a US senator who's quite hot on security and privacy, and he's been putting forward a motion to insist that anyone who wants to put a Stingray in place has to get an appropriate warrant from the court showing probable cause.
Because there just happens to be someone who's planted this thing down the bottom of your street. So there are moves ahead. There's a, I think it's, is his name Ron Wyden?
There's a US senator who's quite hot on security and privacy, and he's been putting forward a motion to insist that anyone who wants to put a Stingray in place has to get an appropriate warrant from the court showing probable cause.
Can you use them in Europe? That sounds a GDPR nightmare.
Yeah, I think they are used around the world. But again, this is something which has been quite controversial. Now, we don't know if this is the way Mr.
Abdul was eventually caught, but he was arrested last month. He's currently out on bail.
But I found it rather fascinating that the cops would actually just simply text a suspect and ask him to turn himself in when they had no other way of communicating with him, and then would go to such lengths to try and locate him.
Abdul was eventually caught, but he was arrested last month. He's currently out on bail.
But I found it rather fascinating that the cops would actually just simply text a suspect and ask him to turn himself in when they had no other way of communicating with him, and then would go to such lengths to try and locate him.
Sometimes you have higher expectations of the security services, don't you? You sort of expect them to be a bit more sophisticated, maybe.
I had a really weird experience once where someone, I don't know, the closest I've ever got, if indeed it was that, to somebody approaching me, I think, sort of in a roundabout way, asking me whether I'd ever thought about working for security services, and then asking whether, you know, I would like to meet them, and could they pass on my number?
And I was like, I really— I very much hope that GCHQ knows how to get hold of me. I'm really not that hard to find.
If they can't find me, then I'm slightly worried about the state of the security services.
Anyway, I think I talked myself out of it because I never heard from anybody, or at least I don't think I did. Who knows?
I had a really weird experience once where someone, I don't know, the closest I've ever got, if indeed it was that, to somebody approaching me, I think, sort of in a roundabout way, asking me whether I'd ever thought about working for security services, and then asking whether, you know, I would like to meet them, and could they pass on my number?
And I was like, I really— I very much hope that GCHQ knows how to get hold of me. I'm really not that hard to find.
If they can't find me, then I'm slightly worried about the state of the security services.
Anyway, I think I talked myself out of it because I never heard from anybody, or at least I don't think I did. Who knows?
Zoe, what have you got for us this week?
Did you watch the football on Sunday?
Football?
Yes.
Is there a football game?
Graham and I watched it together, actually.
We did, didn't we?
One of those weird, weird times. How romantic. When we were in the same physical space.
Yes, that's right.
Wow.
Did you enjoy it?
Yes.
So, we were fighting because Graham just kept saying, "Oh God, just get to penalties." And I was taking the athlete's side going, "You've done 90 minutes of running around a crazy loon, and now you've gotta, you know, you put your life on the line."
So, we were fighting because Graham just kept saying, "Oh God, just get to penalties." And I was taking the athlete's side going, "You've done 90 minutes of running around a crazy loon, and now you've gotta, you know, you put your life on the line."
I don't see what the point is of extra time.
I think football could be made much more entertaining by releasing crocodiles onto the pitch or making the goals larger, or it's— I just think it can be a little bit dull.
So I the penalties, although possibly it didn't go quite as well as England hoped.
I think football could be made much more entertaining by releasing crocodiles onto the pitch or making the goals larger, or it's— I just think it can be a little bit dull.
So I the penalties, although possibly it didn't go quite as well as England hoped.
I did feel for them all actually, because I don't think I could run up and down a football field for more than 6.5 seconds.
Well, not when you're 7 months pregnant, probably. No.
I wouldn't recommend it. I'd still be there, to be honest. Waddling my way towards probably the wrong end of the goal, who knows.
Anyway, yes, massive cultural highlight for lots of people, the final of the Euro 2020 men's tournament, England versus Italy.
Lots of passion and excitement, and I think especially coming off the back of the year and a half we've had of the pandemic and lockdown and everything else, there was a lot of excitement, wasn't there?
And goodwill riding on this finale. And I think 31 million people watched it on the telly. There were 60,000 people in Wembley watching it, you know, huge, huge gig.
And of course England lost right at the very end on penalties. Yeah. And there's lots of discussion around that which I am absolutely not qualified to get into.
And there was also lots of discussion, wasn't there, about the players they picked to take the penalties, the fact that, you know, some of them were really very young and it's a lot of pressure.
And I did think, watching it, my goodness, doing a penalty shootout that is more psychology in a way than skill, isn't it?
Because the, you know, the crowd and the pressure— oh, I don't know how they, how they cope with it actually, psychologically.
Anyway, yes, massive cultural highlight for lots of people, the final of the Euro 2020 men's tournament, England versus Italy.
Lots of passion and excitement, and I think especially coming off the back of the year and a half we've had of the pandemic and lockdown and everything else, there was a lot of excitement, wasn't there?
And goodwill riding on this finale. And I think 31 million people watched it on the telly. There were 60,000 people in Wembley watching it, you know, huge, huge gig.
And of course England lost right at the very end on penalties. Yeah. And there's lots of discussion around that which I am absolutely not qualified to get into.
And there was also lots of discussion, wasn't there, about the players they picked to take the penalties, the fact that, you know, some of them were really very young and it's a lot of pressure.
And I did think, watching it, my goodness, doing a penalty shootout that is more psychology in a way than skill, isn't it?
Because the, you know, the crowd and the pressure— oh, I don't know how they, how they cope with it actually, psychologically.
Unbelievable, isn't it?
Especially at 19 years old. You know, I was a mess when I was 19 years old. There's absolutely no way, you know.
But you know what, I don't— I didn't feel too bad about England losing on penalties because I thought, well, this is kind of tradition. I thought this is rather lovely.
This is what we do.
This is— yeah, this is sort of— this is the British way. Well, the English way, certainly. It's a bit like Pancake Day or Trooping the Colour. It's, well, this is nice.
Who would want it any other way than this?
Who would want it any other way than this?
Well, we were close, but no cigar, I suppose. And obviously, there was a lot of disappointment, a lot of upset. Some people took it very badly.
There was, unfortunately, then a bit of a torrent of abuse directed primarily at the players who had failed to score in the penalty shootout, all of whom are young Black players, and the abuse that was directed at them was racist.
There's no way of sugarcoating it. It was racist.
There was, unfortunately, then a bit of a torrent of abuse directed primarily at the players who had failed to score in the penalty shootout, all of whom are young Black players, and the abuse that was directed at them was racist.
There's no way of sugarcoating it. It was racist.
Was this online?
Largely. Well, largely on social media. Yeah. And there was a sort of a big problem with people feeling that it wasn't dealt with fast enough.
And I feel, you know, in a way, yes, it happened on Sunday night, but we have this sort of story time and time again, don't we, where social media just cannot cope, it seems, with any sort of volume of this kind of horrible content.
And it's a really interesting one to look at, I think, you know, putting the football aside. What do they do?
You've got 2 billion people using Facebook, uploading their own stuff in real time, whatever it is, you couldn't possibly have an army of moderators, human moderators, big enough to deal with all of that.
And I feel, you know, in a way, yes, it happened on Sunday night, but we have this sort of story time and time again, don't we, where social media just cannot cope, it seems, with any sort of volume of this kind of horrible content.
And it's a really interesting one to look at, I think, you know, putting the football aside. What do they do?
You've got 2 billion people using Facebook, uploading their own stuff in real time, whatever it is, you couldn't possibly have an army of moderators, human moderators, big enough to deal with all of that.
No.
So, they go, "Right, well, we can't manage this, so we're gonna go for the automated route.
We're gonna spend loads of money," and they have spent loads of money and invested in all the resources that these massive companies can have, trying to build algorithms that can seek this stuff out and delete it automatically.
But the algorithms aren't good enough either, and so, you know, they don't understand nuance, they don't understand cultural differences, they don't understand why it might be okay to say something in one context but not in another.
To give you an example, one of these young footballers, somebody put an emoji of an orangutan underneath one of their posts on Instagram, right?
Now clearly, in the context of what's going on, the fact this is a young Black player who's missed a penalty, it wasn't done nicely, was it?
We're gonna spend loads of money," and they have spent loads of money and invested in all the resources that these massive companies can have, trying to build algorithms that can seek this stuff out and delete it automatically.
But the algorithms aren't good enough either, and so, you know, they don't understand nuance, they don't understand cultural differences, they don't understand why it might be okay to say something in one context but not in another.
To give you an example, one of these young footballers, somebody put an emoji of an orangutan underneath one of their posts on Instagram, right?
Now clearly, in the context of what's going on, the fact this is a young Black player who's missed a penalty, it wasn't done nicely, was it?
No.
But the algorithm looks at that in a completely detached manner and goes, "Oh, that's an emoji of an orangutan.
There's nothing wrong with that." And so people were reporting it and the algorithm was coming back going, "No, well, we think it's okay actually.
We know that the technology isn't perfect, but the technology thinks this is okay." And there was this big sort of, well, clearly it's not okay and you can appeal that decision, but then you've got to join the queue of however many people are also joining that queue, waiting for a human moderator to get to this content and then make a decision about it.
Yeah, and it's kind of brought that whole story back up. In the meantime, it's been widely condemned by everybody.
You know, Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said people should be ashamed of themselves for posting this stuff. The FA has said it's terrible. The Met Police have said it's terrible.
Everybody is widely condemning it. I think Harry Kane, the England captain, said if you're doing this, you're not an England fan and we don't want you.
But that doesn't mean that it wasn't happening and that it wasn't being taken down fast enough. And the second point about this is something I bang on about often.
Traditionally, and still, social media platforms are not considered to be publishers.
So, if somebody wrote something that on the BBC website where I work, as a comment, then it would be the BBC that would be immediately responsible for getting rid of it, and we would be in lots of trouble if we didn't deal with it extremely quickly.
But the social media platforms don't have that regulation. They're not governed by Ofcom in this country, you know, they don't have— they self-regulate.
It's changing, it's coming very slowly, towards them, but they just don't have that responsibility. And the question is, how long can they get away with that?
There's nothing wrong with that." And so people were reporting it and the algorithm was coming back going, "No, well, we think it's okay actually.
We know that the technology isn't perfect, but the technology thinks this is okay." And there was this big sort of, well, clearly it's not okay and you can appeal that decision, but then you've got to join the queue of however many people are also joining that queue, waiting for a human moderator to get to this content and then make a decision about it.
Yeah, and it's kind of brought that whole story back up. In the meantime, it's been widely condemned by everybody.
You know, Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said people should be ashamed of themselves for posting this stuff. The FA has said it's terrible. The Met Police have said it's terrible.
Everybody is widely condemning it. I think Harry Kane, the England captain, said if you're doing this, you're not an England fan and we don't want you.
But that doesn't mean that it wasn't happening and that it wasn't being taken down fast enough. And the second point about this is something I bang on about often.
Traditionally, and still, social media platforms are not considered to be publishers.
So, if somebody wrote something that on the BBC website where I work, as a comment, then it would be the BBC that would be immediately responsible for getting rid of it, and we would be in lots of trouble if we didn't deal with it extremely quickly.
But the social media platforms don't have that regulation. They're not governed by Ofcom in this country, you know, they don't have— they self-regulate.
It's changing, it's coming very slowly, towards them, but they just don't have that responsibility. And the question is, how long can they get away with that?
Yeah. Well, they waited too long and the tech firms got too powerful.
And the legal quagmire that everyone has to wade through for the benefit of all the lawyers involved is horrific. So I feel for legislators as well.
But yeah, absolutely they should be considered publishers.
They are making a fortune based off all this content that you and I are putting up there for free, and they should therefore be accountable for it.
And the legal quagmire that everyone has to wade through for the benefit of all the lawyers involved is horrific. So I feel for legislators as well.
But yeah, absolutely they should be considered publishers.
They are making a fortune based off all this content that you and I are putting up there for free, and they should therefore be accountable for it.
It's a difficult one because it's an impossible thing, isn't it?
But equally, it does seem mad that they have managed to not have any responsibility at all for this stuff that's really being seen and shared by an extraordinarily large audience.
But equally, it does seem mad that they have managed to not have any responsibility at all for this stuff that's really being seen and shared by an extraordinarily large audience.
I'm always amazed when someone's hand is forced how quickly they can change an entire category of things.
Wasn't there this— I can't remember the story now, which is very irritating. Graham, do you might remember there was some porn site, it was in Montreal or something, and—
Wasn't there this— I can't remember the story now, which is very irritating. Graham, do you might remember there was some porn site, it was in Montreal or something, and—
Sorry, why are you thinking I'd know about this? Because it's to do with a porn site?
I think you spoke about it.
Oh, right.
No, no, I'm not trying to make it— But anyway, within a week, they changed everything to ensure that only adults would view the content that they were putting out.
Within a week, the whole system had changed, and I think you had to register with credit cards and all this stuff.
Within a week, the whole system had changed, and I think you had to register with credit cards and all this stuff.
Yeah, but you know, that can cause problems as well, because do you really feel comfortable with some of these social media sites actually being the custodians of your identity information and being the ones who you have to upload details to?
No, I think you stay off them.
I think there's a really good case for anonymity in some cases, you know, where I'd hate to see that go. I don't think there's an easy solution to this.
And maybe that's the problem is that we're looking for a 100% solution and it simply doesn't exist.
And maybe what needs to happen is we need to have better systems for alerting when there's inappropriate content and for it to be dealt with more quickly and not get too hung up that some things will inevitably get through.
But if we give people better tools for filtering out the hatred stuff, that would be a good thing.
And maybe that's the problem is that we're looking for a 100% solution and it simply doesn't exist.
And maybe what needs to happen is we need to have better systems for alerting when there's inappropriate content and for it to be dealt with more quickly and not get too hung up that some things will inevitably get through.
But if we give people better tools for filtering out the hatred stuff, that would be a good thing.
Zoe, do you know the hatred stuff and the racist stuff that you saw, are people doing these from their legit accounts, or are they creating pseudo-anonymized accounts?
I think a lot of it came from anonymous accounts, right? And there were a few people who appeared to have shared this sort of stuff from named accounts.
There was one guy who I heard reportedly might have lost his job as an estate agent, or maybe being investigated because there were comments that his account posted.
I believe he said that his account was hacked, and so it wasn't him who posted the thing.
I believe he said that his account was hacked, and so it wasn't him who posted the thing.
Weinergate.
There have been a few incidents of people who were identifiable who have since said that they have been hacked.
Now, obviously, it probably won't take very long to clear that up if they have, so that will be a relief for them, I'm sure, once the police have identified those culprits.
But I think the anonymity debate is ongoing, isn't it? On the one hand, as Graham says, there are occasions absolutely when it's necessary.
On the other hand, it just seems to be an irresistible way for some people to express this sort of thing.
Now, obviously, it probably won't take very long to clear that up if they have, so that will be a relief for them, I'm sure, once the police have identified those culprits.
But I think the anonymity debate is ongoing, isn't it? On the one hand, as Graham says, there are occasions absolutely when it's necessary.
On the other hand, it just seems to be an irresistible way for some people to express this sort of thing.
So have you been a victim of maybe nothing as bad as what these footballers have received, but because you're in the public eye, Zoe, and you pop up on our television and talk about things, do nutters abuse you on social media?
I'm nothing like an England footballer. I do get hassled sometimes. Yeah, I mean, I have a Jewish name, so occasionally I get antisemitism.
And that tends to come in a little wave that I always think it's something sparks it.
Somebody somewhere says something and then it sparks, and then it ends up with me being included in it. Yeah, and I report it, and sometimes it's dealt with and sometimes it isn't.
I mean, you know, I don't think the reporting process is brilliant, if I'm honest, from personal experience.
I think, Carole, you may well agree with me at this—being a woman on social media, full stop, is enough to sometimes attract attention that you don't want.
And that tends to come in a little wave that I always think it's something sparks it.
Somebody somewhere says something and then it sparks, and then it ends up with me being included in it. Yeah, and I report it, and sometimes it's dealt with and sometimes it isn't.
I mean, you know, I don't think the reporting process is brilliant, if I'm honest, from personal experience.
I think, Carole, you may well agree with me at this—being a woman on social media, full stop, is enough to sometimes attract attention that you don't want.
Yeah, that's why I'm not on it. Yeah, well, I'm on it as little as I can be.
Sometimes I get close to that, actually. I think, you know what, "Why am I doing this?" You know, I guess I work in a field as well.
I work in tech, and it's something that some men think is for the men and women don't really understand.
So, you know, my male colleagues and I can tweet something really quite similar, and they will get, "Oh yes, good point, mate," and I will get, "What are you talking about?
You've got it all wrong, blah blah blah," you know. And sometimes I think, "Well, I don't know why I'm bothering with this. I don't need this in my life, you know.
I've got enough going on." But I think I kind of feel it's important that in a small, tiny way that I stay, because if all the women left, then who, you know, then their voices don't get heard at all.
And I feel very strongly that that would not be great either.
I work in tech, and it's something that some men think is for the men and women don't really understand.
So, you know, my male colleagues and I can tweet something really quite similar, and they will get, "Oh yes, good point, mate," and I will get, "What are you talking about?
You've got it all wrong, blah blah blah," you know. And sometimes I think, "Well, I don't know why I'm bothering with this. I don't need this in my life, you know.
I've got enough going on." But I think I kind of feel it's important that in a small, tiny way that I stay, because if all the women left, then who, you know, then their voices don't get heard at all.
And I feel very strongly that that would not be great either.
You know what, I've just had an idea.
You could have a button to report abuse, right, which goes to Twitter, it goes to Facebook or Instagram or whoever it is to report that someone's done something offensive.
Maybe there should be a separate button on these social media sites which is 'Report to their mum' and it sends the message that they've posted.
So when you create an account, you don't just have to enter your details, you also have to enter the details of your mum and it sends to them a message saying, 'Do you know what your son or your daughter has just posted up on social media?
You could have a button to report abuse, right, which goes to Twitter, it goes to Facebook or Instagram or whoever it is to report that someone's done something offensive.
Maybe there should be a separate button on these social media sites which is 'Report to their mum' and it sends the message that they've posted.
So when you create an account, you don't just have to enter your details, you also have to enter the details of your mum and it sends to them a message saying, 'Do you know what your son or your daughter has just posted up on social media?
Maybe you should have a word with them.' God, you really should be leader of the world.
Thank you. Yeah, finally.
I think that's a great idea.
I mean, you hear stories occasionally, don't you, where people track down their trolls and contact their parents and it's justifiably mortifying for them.
I mean, you hear stories occasionally, don't you, where people track down their trolls and contact their parents and it's justifiably mortifying for them.
Carole, what have you got for us this week?
We're kicking off my section with the very nascent idea, or one of the very nascent ideas, of smart technology.
Okay, we're heading back to the '80s, and I'm gonna give you guys a YouTube link. There we go. So you guys check this out, and see if you remember this.
Okay, we're heading back to the '80s, and I'm gonna give you guys a YouTube link. There we go. So you guys check this out, and see if you remember this.
Let you turn things on or off from anywhere in the room.
Just plug in the Clapper and the television, lamp, stereo, almost anything you want to clap on and off.
Clap on, clap off, clap on, clap off.
This is amazing.
I don't remember this advert, but so this is a clap-on light.
Yeah, clap on, clap off. Everyone my age who lived in North America will know this. Clap on, clap off.
I've never seen that advert.
Well, I was in love with this product. I just wanted it so badly, and my parents just thought I was insane. But I just thought, how brilliant.
And look at us now, 40 years on, and we have all manner of tech in the home, all promoted to make our lives something.
And look at us now, 40 years on, and we have all manner of tech in the home, all promoted to make our lives something.
So some of them is safer, right? So you have home security or health monitoring tech or smart toilets to alert you to poo or pee concerns.
Sorry, what?
There is. There's these smart toilets that'll do health checks on your ablutions.
Oh, right. Okay. Let's sift through.
And then tell you, hey, eat more fiber, Graham.
Right. Nice.
Yeah. And you've got smart tech to make it cozier, right?
So you might get blinds that shut or set themselves exactly to 38 degrees so you can catch the last few rays of sunlight at a particular time.
Or you can come home and have the lights set just right, your favorite podcast playing, Smashing Security, obviously.
So you might get blinds that shut or set themselves exactly to 38 degrees so you can catch the last few rays of sunlight at a particular time.
Or you can come home and have the lights set just right, your favorite podcast playing, Smashing Security, obviously.
Or they make your life more convenient. You can run the dishwasher or washing machine from your iPhone or Android.
You can review the contents of your fridge while you're going to the shops to see what you need to buy. You don't even have to make a list anymore.
Graham, you have a smart hoover, don't you?
You can review the contents of your fridge while you're going to the shops to see what you need to buy. You don't even have to make a list anymore.
Graham, you have a smart hoover, don't you?
Well, I don't know if I'd call it smart. I have a robot hoover. I can press a button.
It's not IoT though.
No, no, it's not on the internet as such, but I can press a button and it will go and clean my—
Yeah, so a dumb, but yeah. So all this stuff, right? And smart tech now is actually becoming a key feature in many new house builds.
So I was looking at the UK Homeowners Alliance and they say a key pro to buying a new build is modern living.
Top-spec new build builds have all the latest tech with smart home features.
And there was another property rag called UK Property Publications, and they are saying that you really want to install this smart tech because it can reduce your home insurance premiums.
Because, you know, by installing smart tech devices, consumers are taking a greater stake in their own home insurance cover, they say.
So demonstrating responsibility by being spied on all the time. And in exchange for that, you get lower premium offerings.
And in these houses, they're building the tech right into the walls.
And there's this kind of laissez-faire attitude—you want to buy this, you want to live easily, you want smart home technology that runs in the background requiring little to no input from the owner.
Do you think that's worrying? I can't even buy a smart TV, so I'm the wrong person to ask.
But I was going to ask you guys, if you were on the market for a new house, would you be put off by built-in smart tech?
So I was looking at the UK Homeowners Alliance and they say a key pro to buying a new build is modern living.
Top-spec new build builds have all the latest tech with smart home features.
And there was another property rag called UK Property Publications, and they are saying that you really want to install this smart tech because it can reduce your home insurance premiums.
Because, you know, by installing smart tech devices, consumers are taking a greater stake in their own home insurance cover, they say.
So demonstrating responsibility by being spied on all the time. And in exchange for that, you get lower premium offerings.
And in these houses, they're building the tech right into the walls.
And there's this kind of laissez-faire attitude—you want to buy this, you want to live easily, you want smart home technology that runs in the background requiring little to no input from the owner.
Do you think that's worrying? I can't even buy a smart TV, so I'm the wrong person to ask.
But I was going to ask you guys, if you were on the market for a new house, would you be put off by built-in smart tech?
Oh, I just think it's more things to go wrong. But, you know, maybe I'm a granddad. I don't think I am a granddad, but—
Well, I'm torn with this. I'm somewhere between the two camps. I've embraced it to an extent, and I love the convenience of it, but the security leaves me a bit cold.
And I don't have a tracker, a family tracker on my phone. Lots of my mum friends they all track each other.
And my partner's in the Navy and he's at sea at the moment, and he said, "Oh, why don't we do it?
And then, you know, you might be able to see where I am." I was like, "Well, I don't think I will be able to because, yes, I don't think I'm allowed to see where you are." But we looked into it as an option.
And, you know, my kids don't have phones yet, but they're getting to an age where they will. And I love the idea, but I looked at the one that most people seem to be using.
And I was horrified by it. I just thought, I just didn't want this, you know. I know it's only my family, I think it's only my family, that's another issue, isn't it?
But also, I just, I don't want that. I don't want to be tracked. I don't want people to know where I am, you know.
It comes back to what you were saying earlier, Graham, with the story over the phones, you know.
Sometimes you just want to be doing what you're doing and not thinking about people watching you do it. But that said, sometimes the convenience of it is just amazing, isn't it?
And I don't have a tracker, a family tracker on my phone. Lots of my mum friends they all track each other.
And my partner's in the Navy and he's at sea at the moment, and he said, "Oh, why don't we do it?
And then, you know, you might be able to see where I am." I was like, "Well, I don't think I will be able to because, yes, I don't think I'm allowed to see where you are." But we looked into it as an option.
And, you know, my kids don't have phones yet, but they're getting to an age where they will. And I love the idea, but I looked at the one that most people seem to be using.
And I was horrified by it. I just thought, I just didn't want this, you know. I know it's only my family, I think it's only my family, that's another issue, isn't it?
But also, I just, I don't want that. I don't want to be tracked. I don't want people to know where I am, you know.
It comes back to what you were saying earlier, Graham, with the story over the phones, you know.
Sometimes you just want to be doing what you're doing and not thinking about people watching you do it. But that said, sometimes the convenience of it is just amazing, isn't it?
And the thing is, is they talk about all the bells and whistles, but they don't ever really address many of the negatives involved, right?
So the thing I'd worry about with a tech house that was all built in is how have you future-proofed this, right? So, and what if something goes really wrong?
How do I get in there to go fix it? How does it get patched if there's a vulnerability, for example?
So the thing I'd worry about with a tech house that was all built in is how have you future-proofed this, right? So, and what if something goes really wrong?
How do I get in there to go fix it? How does it get patched if there's a vulnerability, for example?
Yeah, I mean, not that— it's not future—
No, I don't— how can it be? We don't even know. It's so fast right now, we have no idea what we'll be doing in 10 years.
I remember being delighted when plug sockets came out with USB.
I thought that was the future, and now I don't have anything that's USB, it's all USB-C, so none of my plugs are any good anymore, which is a tiny example, but that's a perfect point.
I thought that was the future, and now I don't have anything that's USB, it's all USB-C, so none of my plugs are any good anymore, which is a tiny example, but that's a perfect point.
So case in point, Samsung have smart washing machines. Who knew?
And you can download an app and then you can control when you launch the washing cycle, or you can make adjustments, yada yada, right? When you're doing something else.
And you can download an app and then you can control when you launch the washing cycle, or you can make adjustments, yada yada, right? When you're doing something else.
I have to admit, I have one.
Oh, interesting. Okay, perfect. I didn't know that.
Do you have the app as well? Well, no, I don't. I don't have the app. The reason I bought it is very low-tech.
What I really like about Samsung washing machines is there's a little tiny door in the middle of the big door that you can open when you find the sock on the stairs.
And that is why I've got it. Really?
What I really like about Samsung washing machines is there's a little tiny door in the middle of the big door that you can open when you find the sock on the stairs.
And that is why I've got it. Really?
Oh, so it's got a little porthole in the main—
Yeah, you can hit pause on the cycle and this little sort of trap door opens and you can put in everything that you found you've dropped on the way to the washing machine, which I don't know about you, but I do all the time.
That's cool.
That's why I bought it. Forget the app. Yeah.
So it's important to note actually that even if you buy one of these smart washing machines, it does work without the app.
It does.
Right. So it works as a normal washing machine, but you can get the app as well to do cool stuff.
So this is all great, except according to Vice, these apps that control the internet-connected appliances actually require all the phone's contacts and the phone call app, the phone's location and camera.
And without saying yes, okay, you can have access to this, the app does not work.
So this is all great, except according to Vice, these apps that control the internet-connected appliances actually require all the phone's contacts and the phone call app, the phone's location and camera.
And without saying yes, okay, you can have access to this, the app does not work.
Is this so your washing machine can email your friends to say, "Graham has finished his washing. He might now smell nicer," or something?
In his Samsung washing machine.
Yeah.
Why is it okay for Samsung to snuffle this information?
Do you think they did it by design to get all this info, or do you think it was an accident, or do you think they didn't really know what they were doing and they just said, "Yeah, okay, let's take everything we can," tech naivety, effectively?
Do you think they did it by design to get all this info, or do you think it was an accident, or do you think they didn't really know what they were doing and they just said, "Yeah, okay, let's take everything we can," tech naivety, effectively?
I think it's a land grab. I don't think it's just Samsung, they're all at it. I got some earbuds recently that I will tell you more about in a minute.
I really like them, but when I went to set them up, they wanted access to my call history. I'm like, why? Why does a pair of headphones have to know who I've been phoning?
So I just hit the no button. I was going to say something a bit stronger than that. I hit the no button.
Occasionally now I get this little thing going, "Oh, would you like us to know your phone history?" I'm like, "No, why do you want to know it so badly?" Hey, Zoe, maybe you're in a better mood today.
I really like them, but when I went to set them up, they wanted access to my call history. I'm like, why? Why does a pair of headphones have to know who I've been phoning?
So I just hit the no button. I was going to say something a bit stronger than that. I hit the no button.
Occasionally now I get this little thing going, "Oh, would you like us to know your phone history?" I'm like, "No, why do you want to know it so badly?" Hey, Zoe, maybe you're in a better mood today.
Do you want to give us access?
Exactly. Exactly. You've had a nice time. You've been to the football. Let us see who you've been ringing.
So, yeah. So, I checked out the app, right, on the Apple App Store.
And Samsung have not even yet provided to Apple what data they collect from users, which is late to the ballpark on this one, but the ratings are abysmal.
And apparently on Android, it's the same. They're all about 2 out of 5. And there's a slew of reviews that basically are complaining about these unnecessary permissions.
So then I was thinking maybe Samsung have hit hard times, don't have enough resources or funds to help improve the app. So I wanted to see what their net worth was.
Do you want to guess?
And Samsung have not even yet provided to Apple what data they collect from users, which is late to the ballpark on this one, but the ratings are abysmal.
And apparently on Android, it's the same. They're all about 2 out of 5. And there's a slew of reviews that basically are complaining about these unnecessary permissions.
So then I was thinking maybe Samsung have hit hard times, don't have enough resources or funds to help improve the app. So I wanted to see what their net worth was.
Do you want to guess?
I like the theory, Carole. I suspect they're making quite a lot of money, aren't they?
Well, yeah. So $300 billion net worth. The thing that bugs me about that is if you went around and asked people on the street, what do you think about Samsung?
I reckon most would say, oh, it's a pretty respected brand. Don't you?
I reckon most would say, oh, it's a pretty respected brand. Don't you?
See, I'm not sure they're doing this to grab, because they're interested in grabbing your address book and doing something nefarious about it.
I think there's probably some daft functionality to recommend this washing machine to a friend.
And that bit of functionality requires access to your address book or something, or makes it a smoother process and they haven't thought it through.
And so the people developing the app just simply thought, "Oh, this is easy to do. We'll just turn that on." I tend to believe more in the cock-up theory of history than conspiracy.
I think there's probably some daft functionality to recommend this washing machine to a friend.
And that bit of functionality requires access to your address book or something, or makes it a smoother process and they haven't thought it through.
And so the people developing the app just simply thought, "Oh, this is easy to do. We'll just turn that on." I tend to believe more in the cock-up theory of history than conspiracy.
Only when it's convenient, I think, is what I'd say to that for you.
But the way I'm distilling this in my head, but tell me if you guys think something differently, companies are going to be flogging smart tech and touting the whole fear of missing out messaging because there's a number of clear wins, right?
One, collect and use the data for research to build more services that you can sell to people or to improve your marketing to try and target your audience better.
And two, potential new revenue streams like the Peloton monthly fee so you can get yelled at and ride with other people on our screen, right?
But the way I'm distilling this in my head, but tell me if you guys think something differently, companies are going to be flogging smart tech and touting the whole fear of missing out messaging because there's a number of clear wins, right?
One, collect and use the data for research to build more services that you can sell to people or to improve your marketing to try and target your audience better.
And two, potential new revenue streams like the Peloton monthly fee so you can get yelled at and ride with other people on our screen, right?
So you're thinking this may be a case of FOMO with the Samsung washing machine? Hashtag dad joke.
Foam.
What would be the A for?
Just, it's the sound of it, Carole. Please don't ruin the joke.
Oh, oh, oh, yeah. Good.
I mean, I guess this is how we pay for stuff though, isn't it? Data has become a currency that we're not aware of.
Yeah, and they're kind of stealing it from us, kinda. That's the thing, right? You're not selling it to them.
You're paying for the item, and then they're taking that for free in exchange.
You're paying for the item, and then they're taking that for free in exchange.
Why do you need an app at all? You've got a little special second door in the front of this amazing Samsung washing machine, according to brand ambassador Zoe Kleinman.
She's the new Nanette Newman.
She's the new Nanette Newman.
I should say that other washing machines are available, shouldn't I? But I don't know if they've got the little door.
Yeah, but what are all the other things? The automated blinds and the automated lights and the automated music system and the automated connected everything.
There are 7 billion connected IoT devices. 7 out of 10 homes in the States are said to have at least one. And the market last year was considered to be at $24 billion.
So much, much less than what Samsung actually are worth. And expected to reach $70 billion in 2026. So that's a huge growth there.
There are 7 billion connected IoT devices. 7 out of 10 homes in the States are said to have at least one. And the market last year was considered to be at $24 billion.
So much, much less than what Samsung actually are worth. And expected to reach $70 billion in 2026. So that's a huge growth there.
There's a darker side to this as well that I'm ashamed to say I don't know loads about, but I have seen some research suggesting that smart tech can be used in the home to control partners, that the person who sets it all up has all the access to it.
And often the partner, who tends to more often be the woman, might not know how to use it.
So the doors can be locked, the heating can go up, the music can go on, and it can all be controlled by an abusive partner.
And the person who's being controlled might not know how to make it stop.
And often the partner, who tends to more often be the woman, might not know how to use it.
So the doors can be locked, the heating can go up, the music can go on, and it can all be controlled by an abusive partner.
And the person who's being controlled might not know how to make it stop.
Yeah, you head for the door and they lock the door on you?
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There's been cases of that.
I'm going to look into that. That sounds absolutely awful.
So just out of interest, the big challenges in the IoT world, okay, this is according to a research paper by a team at University of Glasgow. There's 4 big ones. One is scalability.
There is a huge number of devices already out there that require simultaneous connectivity. And how are we going to scale that in the next coming years?
Security and privacy is massive on this, as we've been talking about. Lack of privacy standards and security solutions is ongoing.
And there's challenges in designing large-scale distributed heterogeneous IoT networks.
So we have all these different types of stuff and they're all made differently and on different systems. And how do they all talk and work together on one system?
How do we create this? And there's so many challenges involved with that. And of course there's the environmental impact, right?
So communications are fairly efficient, but all the hardware, you know, once, you know, like your light switches or your plug sockets, Zoe, you know, when you change them, what are they gonna— no one wants those.
So just out of interest, the big challenges in the IoT world, okay, this is according to a research paper by a team at University of Glasgow. There's 4 big ones. One is scalability.
There is a huge number of devices already out there that require simultaneous connectivity. And how are we going to scale that in the next coming years?
Security and privacy is massive on this, as we've been talking about. Lack of privacy standards and security solutions is ongoing.
And there's challenges in designing large-scale distributed heterogeneous IoT networks.
So we have all these different types of stuff and they're all made differently and on different systems. And how do they all talk and work together on one system?
How do we create this? And there's so many challenges involved with that. And of course there's the environmental impact, right?
So communications are fairly efficient, but all the hardware, you know, once, you know, like your light switches or your plug sockets, Zoe, you know, when you change them, what are they gonna— no one wants those.
And I would also argue that in a way, if you're getting something that's branded Samsung or Amazon, or Amazon— well, yeah, no, Amazon's massively into it, smart tech, isn't it?
You know, if you get a big brand like that, they're more likely to be more accountable and transparent than your dodgy crap that you find on eBay or on a marketplace somewhere that's come from who knows where and has who knows what in it.
You know, if you get a big brand like that, they're more likely to be more accountable and transparent than your dodgy crap that you find on eBay or on a marketplace somewhere that's come from who knows where and has who knows what in it.
Yep, totally.
You know, there's a ton of cheap stuff, isn't there, that will do the job, but nobody knows what it is or where it's come from.
I know, it's disgusting. So apparently there's a big disconnect.
So one of this other paper was saying there's a huge disconnect between the people that are actually flogging this IoT stuff and they're really focused on the bells and whistles and how it'll improve your life and give you convenience and da da da da da.
But what buyers are anxious about is lack of security and privacy.
And I think your example on what you were just saying earlier is like, I know I don't want you to track me all the time is exactly how I kind of look at these things, but maybe we're fairly educated in tech.
And so we know to look for these things. I don't know.
But the paper is saying we are not going to hit growth in this area if they don't, if people that create the IoT don't take security seriously and don't talk about security and privacy and make it a real priority.
I'm not anti-IoT everything, but I can fucking put my own on with my clap of my hands, right? I don't need a map to do it for me.
So one of this other paper was saying there's a huge disconnect between the people that are actually flogging this IoT stuff and they're really focused on the bells and whistles and how it'll improve your life and give you convenience and da da da da da.
But what buyers are anxious about is lack of security and privacy.
And I think your example on what you were just saying earlier is like, I know I don't want you to track me all the time is exactly how I kind of look at these things, but maybe we're fairly educated in tech.
And so we know to look for these things. I don't know.
But the paper is saying we are not going to hit growth in this area if they don't, if people that create the IoT don't take security seriously and don't talk about security and privacy and make it a real priority.
I'm not anti-IoT everything, but I can fucking put my own on with my clap of my hands, right? I don't need a map to do it for me.
But isn't it fun? My kids have named my, I've got a couple of smart lights and my kids have named them. So now we say, you know, turn on Jane or turn on Bob or whatever.
And they think that's hilarious.
And they think that's hilarious.
I bet kids are actually driving force of it. I bet parents buy it a lot to keep the kids happy, right?
I think they are. Yeah, my kids use their Echos more than we do, for sure.
I would like a real magical smart assistant. I can just clap and a genie would appear in a puff of smoke and do whatever I command. I could call it Geoff, maybe.
You could just make some friends, right?
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And thanks to privacy.com for supporting the show. And welcome back. Can you join us for our favorite part of the show? The part of the show that we like to call Pick of the Week.
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And thanks to privacy.com for supporting the show. And welcome back. Can you join us for our favorite part of the show? The part of the show that we like to call Pick of the Week.
Pick of the Week.
Pick of the Week.
Pick of the Week is the part of the show where everyone chooses something they like.
Could be a funny story, a book that they've read, a TV show, a movie, a record, a podcast, a website, or an app. Whatever they wish. Doesn't have to be security-related necessarily.
Could be a funny story, a book that they've read, a TV show, a movie, a record, a podcast, a website, or an app. Whatever they wish. Doesn't have to be security-related necessarily.
Better not be.
Well, my Pick of the Week this week was inspired by a comment I made on a recent episode.
And in fact, having mentioned it, friend of the show Thom Langford actually gave me a mug with a picture of this fictional character on the front of it.
One of the greatest television shows ever. It is, of course, Columbo.
And in fact, having mentioned it, friend of the show Thom Langford actually gave me a mug with a picture of this fictional character on the front of it.
One of the greatest television shows ever. It is, of course, Columbo.
Oh my goodness.
Uh-huh.
Top show.
Which I adore. For any youngsters who have never watched Columbo, but listen to podcasts, let me explain to you the premise of Columbo. A rich person commits a murder.
Lieutenant Columbo, he bumbles in in his rain jacket, and the rich person assumes that Columbo is a buffoon, thinks he can be outfoxed.
But Columbo keeps on showing up at the rich person's house. Columbo isn't interested in any other suspects. Right from the very beginning of the movie, he knows who the suspect is.
"Yeah, yeah, just one more thing." And the rich person becomes increasingly frustrated. Because Columbo is deducing what's going on.
Lieutenant Columbo, he bumbles in in his rain jacket, and the rich person assumes that Columbo is a buffoon, thinks he can be outfoxed.
But Columbo keeps on showing up at the rich person's house. Columbo isn't interested in any other suspects. Right from the very beginning of the movie, he knows who the suspect is.
"Yeah, yeah, just one more thing." And the rich person becomes increasingly frustrated. Because Columbo is deducing what's going on.
He's a hound dog. He doesn't let go.
"Aye, aye, aye. Can I just put my cigar out somewhere?" That's a brilliant impression.
What is brilliant about Columbo is that most murder mystery shows, it's normally about who committed the crime. Not with Columbo. You know that from the very beginning.
It's not even how the crime was committed. You saw it with your own eyes. The first 15 minutes of the program, before Columbo even shows up, you see the murder, how it's been done.
It is all about how will Columbo wrap this guy up in knots and get him ultimately to admit their guilt. It's terrific.
What is brilliant about Columbo is that most murder mystery shows, it's normally about who committed the crime. Not with Columbo. You know that from the very beginning.
It's not even how the crime was committed. You saw it with your own eyes. The first 15 minutes of the program, before Columbo even shows up, you see the murder, how it's been done.
It is all about how will Columbo wrap this guy up in knots and get him ultimately to admit their guilt. It's terrific.
It's sweet. I'd say it's sweet. I'm not sure I'd say it's— I wouldn't say it's—
What? You wouldn't say it's—
I wouldn't say it's the be-all and end-all of television, but I think if you were feeling unwell, right, and you wanted something a bit eating ice cream, it's kind of eating ice cream.
You just get to watch it, it's very comforting. It's a little blanket.
You just get to watch it, it's very comforting. It's a little blanket.
It's not Murder, She Wrote.
Oh, no, it's about the same level. It's about the same level.
No, oh, for goodness' sake! It is not the same level at all.
What's wrong with Angela Lansbury?
Well, nothing at all. She was very— She's been very good in some things. Absolutely. An absolute star.
Right.
Mary Poppins, Manchurian Candidate. But I'm talking about Peter Falk, the late Peter Falk as Columbo in the 1970s. That's when Columbo was at his height.
They had guest stars Martin Landau, Patrick MacGowan, William Shatner. I've even seen one with Johnny Cash. Wonderful. So, absolute legend. Go and find them.
Unfortunately, they don't seem to be streaming anywhere, so you have to catch them in the afternoon somewhere, or maybe find them via some nefarious other means, or buy the box set.
I think it's brilliant. One of the greatest TV programmes ever.
They had guest stars Martin Landau, Patrick MacGowan, William Shatner. I've even seen one with Johnny Cash. Wonderful. So, absolute legend. Go and find them.
Unfortunately, they don't seem to be streaming anywhere, so you have to catch them in the afternoon somewhere, or maybe find them via some nefarious other means, or buy the box set.
I think it's brilliant. One of the greatest TV programmes ever.
I remember watching it when I was a student. I feel nostalgically it was fun.
But it's been so long since I've been a daytime TV viewer that I don't know if it would actually stand the test of time, Graham.
But it's been so long since I've been a daytime TV viewer that I don't know if it would actually stand the test of time, Graham.
It does. And you had directors Sam Wanamaker, Steven Spielberg. He directed some of them. It's amazing, Columbo. Go and check out Columbo. Zoe, what's your Pick of the Week?
Well, I've dramatically changed my mind about my Pick of the Week in the last 24 hours. But I'm going to stick with it and then explain why it's currently not my favourite thing.
I got some earbuds which I didn't think I needed. Quite happy with wired headphones, thank you very much.
Again, as you were saying, Carole, it's just a bit of hardware, isn't it, that's eventually going to end up in a landfill, blah, blah, blah.
I fought it, but they are noise-cancelling and they're brilliant.
I take them off now and I can't believe how loud the world is because they tune out so much of the background noise that just is annoying, isn't it?
And especially when you're working at home, if you're trying to do something and, you know, my whole street is having home refurbishments and they've been perfect, you know.
I got some earbuds which I didn't think I needed. Quite happy with wired headphones, thank you very much.
Again, as you were saying, Carole, it's just a bit of hardware, isn't it, that's eventually going to end up in a landfill, blah, blah, blah.
I fought it, but they are noise-cancelling and they're brilliant.
I take them off now and I can't believe how loud the world is because they tune out so much of the background noise that just is annoying, isn't it?
And especially when you're working at home, if you're trying to do something and, you know, my whole street is having home refurbishments and they've been perfect, you know.
What is the make of these earbuds?
These particular ones are Bose. If you've got someone in your house who snores, then they're great.
Oh really? Does it work there?
Oh, now Carole's interested.
Honestly, without naming and shaming anyone, if you have someone in your household who snores, then give it a go.
Oh yeah, we do, we do.
So I love them. They were not cheap, and I don't like that particularly because again, it's like, well, they're headphones, you know, why am I paying top dollar for these?
They were a gift from my partner. I probably wouldn't have spent the money myself, but there you go. And I love them. However, in the last 24 hours, I've changed my phone.
I've finally moved on from my budget Android, which stood me in good stead but has basically become a landline because the battery is so poor.
So I've upgraded to one that is more expensive, and I'm hoping it's just going to have a bit more oomph to it.
And I cannot get these earbuds to acknowledge that they have a new master, which is my new phone.
I can't get the Bluetooth to recognise the phone, and when I go to it and it says, you know, what are you trying to connect here? Have you got blah, blah, blah?
And I go, yeah, I've got those, I've got noise-cancelling headphones. And then I click that and it goes, well, activate the Bluetooth. And I do.
And it goes, this page will change when we found your headphones. Well, it never changes. So I'm like, okay, I need the help section.
There's a button at the bottom, brilliant, says if you've got a problem, go here. Brilliant, click that button. What does it take me to? The page to buy more earbuds.
They were a gift from my partner. I probably wouldn't have spent the money myself, but there you go. And I love them. However, in the last 24 hours, I've changed my phone.
I've finally moved on from my budget Android, which stood me in good stead but has basically become a landline because the battery is so poor.
So I've upgraded to one that is more expensive, and I'm hoping it's just going to have a bit more oomph to it.
And I cannot get these earbuds to acknowledge that they have a new master, which is my new phone.
I can't get the Bluetooth to recognise the phone, and when I go to it and it says, you know, what are you trying to connect here? Have you got blah, blah, blah?
And I go, yeah, I've got those, I've got noise-cancelling headphones. And then I click that and it goes, well, activate the Bluetooth. And I do.
And it goes, this page will change when we found your headphones. Well, it never changes. So I'm like, okay, I need the help section.
There's a button at the bottom, brilliant, says if you've got a problem, go here. Brilliant, click that button. What does it take me to? The page to buy more earbuds.
Oh, that's so irritating.
I don't want more earbuds. I want the earbuds I have to work on the new phone.
Listeners, if any of you can help Zoe.
Well, I think I've got the solution for Zoe, actually.
Oh yes, I think Zoe— all Zoe needs to do is go on Twitter and explain this problem, and I'm sure about 20 men will mansplain to her what the process is.
Oh yes, I think Zoe— all Zoe needs to do is go on Twitter and explain this problem, and I'm sure about 20 men will mansplain to her what the process is.
Although just tell me I'm wrong. I've got it all wrong. I can't possibly be right about this.
I sometimes wonder if you can tell how effective a tweet or an article or whatever is by how well— how often it gets mansplained back to you afterwards.
I sometimes wonder if you can tell how effective a tweet or an article or whatever is by how well— how often it gets mansplained back to you afterwards.
I love it.
Carole, what's your pick of the week?
Okay, are any of you two into cooking shows, like TV shows or YouTube videos? Not really.
Well, things like Bake Off, but I'm not massively—
I get it. Okay, so you guys can snooze fest through my pick of the week then, because I love them.
But what I hate about most of them is there's absolutely almost nothing to do with cooking, you know.
It's all about, you know, who's doing what and the relationships and all the blah blah. And I kind of like that.
But what I hate about most of them is there's absolutely almost nothing to do with cooking, you know.
It's all about, you know, who's doing what and the relationships and all the blah blah. And I kind of like that.
Yeah.
And I want the tech, right? I want to know the techniques and stuff. So enter Kenji López-Alt. Okay, that's his name. He's been cooking, been a chef for decades.
And maybe like five years ago, he put together a rather excellent book called The Food Lab: Better Home Cooking Through Science. It's a fascinating book. I have it.
I've had it for years. Recommend anybody who wants to learn more about food and making it taste better.
Now Kenji also has a YouTube channel, and these videos consist of a camera strapped to his forehead as he cooks up a dish.
And it can be a late-night snack, or it can be a big, I don't know, spaghetti bolognese, or making a burger. It doesn't matter.
And you have this kind of cook stream of consciousness where he's going, "Oh, actually, I think I'm going to add more salt." And then you see him playing with it and tasting it and then deciding what to do.
But it gives you some kind of feeling of what it's like to be in a kitchen without anything being edited out, right?
So you don't have all the glossy pics and the glossy smiles and all that garbage. It's just really hardcore cooking.
So if that sounds like your thing, you can check out— he's got literally hundreds and hundreds of videos available and it's called Point of View Cooking and you can find it on his YouTube channel called Kenji López-Alt.
And maybe like five years ago, he put together a rather excellent book called The Food Lab: Better Home Cooking Through Science. It's a fascinating book. I have it.
I've had it for years. Recommend anybody who wants to learn more about food and making it taste better.
Now Kenji also has a YouTube channel, and these videos consist of a camera strapped to his forehead as he cooks up a dish.
And it can be a late-night snack, or it can be a big, I don't know, spaghetti bolognese, or making a burger. It doesn't matter.
And you have this kind of cook stream of consciousness where he's going, "Oh, actually, I think I'm going to add more salt." And then you see him playing with it and tasting it and then deciding what to do.
But it gives you some kind of feeling of what it's like to be in a kitchen without anything being edited out, right?
So you don't have all the glossy pics and the glossy smiles and all that garbage. It's just really hardcore cooking.
So if that sounds like your thing, you can check out— he's got literally hundreds and hundreds of videos available and it's called Point of View Cooking and you can find it on his YouTube channel called Kenji López-Alt.
Thank you.
Fantastic.
You guys aren't going to be checking that out, but some of you listeners will, I know, and you'll love it. I know.
All right. Okay.
Yeah. I'm more of the delivery app end of things. I'm afraid at the moment I'm so lazy.
My partner does most of the cooking and he's not here and he's, have you actually eaten a hot meal yet? I'm, no.
My partner does most of the cooking and he's not here and he's, have you actually eaten a hot meal yet? I'm, no.
Well, that just about wraps up the show for this week. Zoe, I'm sure lots of our listeners would love to follow you online, mansplain things to you.
What's the best way for folks to give you advice about your AirPods?
What's the best way for folks to give you advice about your AirPods?
Yes, please. I'm available for mansplaining on Twitter @ZSK.
Terrific. And you can follow us on Twitter @SmashInSecurity, no G, Twitter won't allow us to have a G. And you can also join us on our Smashing Security subreddit.
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For episodes, show notes, sponsorship information, guest lists, and the entire back catalog of more than 235 episodes, check out smashingsecurity.com.
For episodes, show notes, sponsorship information, guest lists, and the entire back catalog of more than 235 episodes, check out smashingsecurity.com.
Until next time, cheerio, bye-bye.
Bye.
Bye-bye.
I cook for you, Zoe. Oh, are you in London? Are you all— yeah, are you all the way in London?
No, I'm not in London, I'm in Hampshire.
Oh, that's not that far.
Last night for dinner I had half a tube of Pringles and a cereal bar. I felt very forlorn. It's bad, isn't it?
I know I do cook for my children, by the way, but I just don't bother cooking for myself.
I know I do cook for my children, by the way, but I just don't bother cooking for myself.
Yeah, yeah, but you've got one in your belly, honey. I know, that's the other one. That's the one.
And you matter, otherwise you're writing articles, you're just gonna go waffle waffle waffle, no food in your belly.
And you matter, otherwise you're writing articles, you're just gonna go waffle waffle waffle, no food in your belly.
I just had a scan this morning actually before doing this, and they said that the baby's got a bit of a chubby belly. I was, well, haven't we all?
Let's not fat shame.
He lets it—
Hello everyone, Carole here. I have some exciting news today. I am recording this on Wednesday, 14th of July at 12:30 BST.
And at this time, we have exactly 599 reviews from people like you. 599! Alex Gurr, the 599th reviewer, writes, "It's more fun than security, and I love it for this.
One could mumble about security breaches, but only you guys could laugh from them. Thanks a ton for all the efforts and looking forward to hearing every new episode. P.S.
Carole, don't discharge Graham for being 10 minutes late." So Alex Gurr, thank you for your review, and I promise I won't.
I act tough and I give him a hard time, but I love him really. At least let's tell him that, you know, for the show. Huge hugs. Thanks for your support. It means the world.
Stay safe and see you next week.
And at this time, we have exactly 599 reviews from people like you. 599! Alex Gurr, the 599th reviewer, writes, "It's more fun than security, and I love it for this.
One could mumble about security breaches, but only you guys could laugh from them. Thanks a ton for all the efforts and looking forward to hearing every new episode. P.S.
Carole, don't discharge Graham for being 10 minutes late." So Alex Gurr, thank you for your review, and I promise I won't.
I act tough and I give him a hard time, but I love him really. At least let's tell him that, you know, for the show. Huge hugs. Thanks for your support. It means the world.
Stay safe and see you next week.
Hosts:
Graham Cluley:
@grahamcluley.com
@
/ grahamcluley
Carole Theriault:
Guest:
Zoe Kleinman – @zsk
Show notes:
- How Does The Secret Service Track Fugitives? One Romance Scammer Hunt Started With A Simple Text — Forbes.
- Stingrays bought, quietly used by police forces across England — Ars Technica.
- Euro 2020: Why abuse remains rife on social media — BBC News.
- Clapper commercial — YouTube.
- Samsung Washing Machine App Requires Access to Your Contacts and Location — Vice.
- Why first-time buyers should buy into smart home tech for their first move — Property Reporter.
- Graham Cluley with his Columbo mug — Twitter.
- The Columbophile fan site.
- How Columbo Became an Unlikely Quarantine Hit — GQ.
- Bose QuietComfort Earbuds — Bose.
- Late Night POV Cooking with J Kenji López-Alt — YouTube.
- Smashing Security merchandise (t-shirts, mugs, stickers and stuff)
- Support us on Patreon!
Sponsor: Privacy.com
Privacy.com lets you buy things online using virtual cards instead of having to use your real ones, protecting your identity and bank information on the internet. Right now, new customers will automatically get $5 to spend on their first purchase.
Go to privacy.com/smashing
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Sponsor: Offensive Security
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